Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the "right" to dictate where people should go?
Please act like a respectable member.
Care to elaborate why do you have a right to tell others how to act?
I was not telling anybody else how to act. I was simply asking (indicated by the word "Please" at the start of the sentence) that he act like a "respectable member".
**Please** do not misconstrue what I write.
I was not telling anybody else how to act. I was simply asking (indicated by the word "Please" at the start of the sentence) that he act like a "respectable member".
**Please** do not misconstrue what I write.
Cannot stop from telling (sorry, "asking") others what to do?
When why do you misconstrue what others write? Let's see:
Greg:
Cry babies who think the Rails core or community owes them something can go cry somewhere else.
Ryan:
Must you be so arrogant? What gives you the "right" to dictate where people should go?
Nobody dictated anything. Merely a notion that cry babies CAN go cry somewhere else.
Regards, Rimantas
Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
Telling people to leave the community is one sure fire way for them to do that, and I'm sure deep down you don't want that to happen because without people we are without community.
Not everyone is good for community. I won't be sad a bit if some leave.
So (and I guess it's my turn to potentially misconstrue) what you're saying is that the people who apparently are interested in the future of Rails should leave?
I think this isn't a very positive attitude to have. These people who are interested in Rails will be the people who tell their friends about it and then they'll tell their friends about it. These are the people we should be **helping** rather than **berating**. Although I've been on that side of the fence too, but I realised it is the wrong side to be on.
I understand their whinging is annoying, but acting in some of the ways we've seen in this thread is not appropriate, **especially** for core members. We need to work together as a community to make this release the best release it can be.
If people want to know what's holding up the release then we should be pointing them (in a positive fashion, a la Ruby community, not RTFBT (read the f*cking bug tracker) a la PHP/C community) to the Bundler tracker: Issues · rubygems/bundler · GitHub which at the very top lists all the bugs that need to be fixed before a 1.0 release candidate comes out. I'll reiterate my opinion: I think that there won't be a Rails release candidate without a Bundler release candidate.
As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this thread have made over the years.
Michael
Michael Schuerig wrote:
As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave?
To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have on the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number of contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in this thread have made over the years.
Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I personally couldn't give a crap (and you shouldn't either) about how many contributions they've made to the mailing list. The manner in which they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If they were even decent members then they'd be decent *all the time*. Making x contributions to the mailing list doesn't give you the right to act in the manner seen in this thread.
If you don't like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn't out yet, there are better ways of dealing with it than calling them crybabies, like not replying at all or, as I said earlier, pointing them in a professional manner at the relevant issue tracker.
Before you point it out, yes I've done this too but I've seen the error of my ways and I'm looking to fix them.
My best guess and a heavy dose of speculation for rails 3 rc1 1. Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs - maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs. That may be all - but.....if that isn't the last issue here are next couple of issues that seem important. 2. ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it won't remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of active record to get old stuff out of the way. 3. Memory leaks......seems to me that you wouldn't wan't to deploy a high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc..x... until the memory issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue...it might be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I'd bet we will see rails 3 rc1 within two weeks, and we may see it in the next 4 or 5 days (today being July 25, 2010)
This is a (somewhat) educated guess after following the "f*cking bug tracker" (is there just a "bug tracker"?) and reading through what to me would be the most important issues. (And if a bug is on the "bug tracker" how does it get bumped up to the "f"cking bug tracer"??)
My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno.... Seems that one blog post or twitter post confirming the above would be all that it would take now and all that it would have taken a month ago just to let people who are interested what is going on. Part of the big push for rails 3 is to expand not only what experts can do with the system, but what beginners and intermediates can do, and to expand the total base of users. This has been the stated goal of the core team over and over. Not communicating is not the way you expand the total base of users. And while whining about "where is it?" doesn't help, how exaclty does it hurt? To paraphrase New Jersey's governor...."you must be some of the thinnest skinned people I've ever known".
If you are on the core team, and you don't get why people are excited and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of communication....let me restate that, I don't know how you could not understand after most of you have given presentation after presentation about what is coming.
But this is an opportunity. You build a community by communicating.......see that the root of both words is the same? You build irritation by not communicating.
And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and send the patch......how long have you been working in rails...a couple years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can't give others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass your ruby and rails skill?
And rails itself.....it's no accident that it took this long to re- factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn't it? And only because it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as it's going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will rails 3 would have been without merb.....and what will rails 4 or 5 be without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
So listen up.....@dhh, @wycats, @josevalim, @spastorino etc. You have a giant opportunity to sooth the massive amount of people who have become interested, well, largely by your own efforts to attract their interest. Use that opportunity to communicate and set a foundation for some of the outside blood that is coming in. For every noob that you find irritating and will disappear in a couple of months because they can't pay their dues, there are 5 others that are irritated and will pay their dues and may be on the rails 4 core team, if you are will to communicate. Just a blog post or twitter post a day from one of you will more than suffice. I've noticed a couple of those things in the last day or two and it really helps.
And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client negotiations. That post will be here for eons....and you have no idea of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done that it would keep me up at night.
So yes....everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide's and projects, and hosting platforms and.....well, you get the idea...
There I've said it. I'll go back to the shadows now....
Cry babies who mismanaged their *cough* business plans, based on a never-officially-announced Rails 3 release date, SHOULD go cry somewhere else. This is a technical group and when someone starts crying about how Rails 3 isn't out yet (oh woe is I), I will continue to remind them to stop crying.
They can build their app in Rails 2 and bring it forward later. There's an ebook for the transition:
They can build their app in Rails 3 beta 4 and will already be 99% ready for the 3.0 release.
Either way, please stop acting like it's OK for them to continue to cry.
Remember:
Hey,
Thanks for your attempts to put together a coherent answer for what's happening based upon reading our public utterances.
Unfortunately, we don't always realize that out comments on the bug tracker, on the Rails core list, on Twitter, etc. cannot easily be put together to form a coherent understanding of the current status of things. That said, as you have shown, there is sufficient public information for an enterprising person to figure out what's happening. I say that purely because we don't always realize that our scattered communications can come across as silence, and this is something we should work on improving.
Comments inline.
My best guess and a heavy dose of speculation for rails 3 rc1 1. Bundler needs to go to rc1 - maybe in a few days with no bugs - maybe in a couple weeks with lots of bugs.
We're down to basically no bugs, but this analysis was basically correct. Keep an eye out for an announcement soon.
That may be all - but.....if that isn't the last issue here are next couple of issues that seem important. 2. ActiveRecord is about half as fast as it was in rails 2.3.5 - it won't remain that way. There is a lot of stuff and junk that has to be cleared out of it - it will probably be a couple of weeks before jose valim and possibly wycats turn their attention to a major clean up of active record to get old stuff out of the way.
Aaron Patterson (of Nokogiri), José and to some degree I have been actively looking at the current state of performance in ActiveRecord. The important open ticket is at https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4-activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235 (which overstates the magnitude of the performance issue, but not the reality of it). I recently commented on the ticket (https:// rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5098-rails-3-beta-4- activerecord-5x-slower-than-rails-235#ticket-5098-60). Aaron is spending some time with Arel, which seems to be the crux of the issue.
3. Memory leaks......seems to me that you wouldn't wan't to deploy a high traffic site with beta4 and ruby 1.9.2 rc..x... until the memory issues are taken care of. That might be a ruby 1.9.2 issue...it might be a rails issue, that is beyond me at the moment.
Yes. The two important tickets are at https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/5042-memory-leak-with-ruby-192-rails-30-beta-4 and #4183 Possible memory leak in Rails 3 - Ruby on Rails - rails. This is something we're actively looking into. This is likely a problem in Ruby 1.9, but it may already be resolved (http:// redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/show/3466#note-3). We're working with Aman Gupta (memprof), and have so far been unable to reproduce this issue. We are actively trying though.
If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I'd bet we will see rails 3 rc1 within two weeks, and we may see it in the next 4 or 5 days (today being July 25, 2010)
This is a (somewhat) educated guess after following the "f*cking bug tracker" (is there just a "bug tracker"?) and reading through what to me would be the most important issues. (And if a bug is on the "bug tracker" how does it get bumped up to the "f"cking bug tracer"??)
My best guess at the silence about what is going on? I dunno.... Seems that one blog post or twitter post confirming the above would be all that it would take now and all that it would have taken a month ago just to let people who are interested what is going on. Part of the big push for rails 3 is to expand not only what experts can do with the system, but what beginners and intermediates can do, and to expand the total base of users. This has been the stated goal of the core team over and over. Not communicating is not the way you expand the total base of users. And while whining about "where is it?" doesn't help, how exaclty does it hurt? To paraphrase New Jersey's governor...."you must be some of the thinnest skinned people I've ever known".
Hehe. I think it's perfectly fine for people to be asking what we're up to. We may not always be able to give a satisfactory response (lately, it's been "as soon as we stop getting so many darn bugs"), but it's a perfectly valid question to ask as often as you'd like.
If you are on the core team, and you don't get why people are excited and confused and a little bit irritated at the lack of communication....let me restate that, I don't know how you could not understand after most of you have given presentation after presentation about what is coming.
Yep. We get it loud and clear. We've spent a lot of time building something kick-ass, have talked a lot about it, and people want it. We understand that fully. Thanks to the efforts of the community, we've gotten a huge inflow of bugs, as well as feedback from plugin authors. This is why RSpec, DataMapper, Haml, etc. are working flawlessly on the Rails 3 betas. We've come a long way, and are closing in on the finish-line.
But this is an opportunity. You build a community by communicating.......see that the root of both words is the same? You build irritation by not communicating.
Absolutely. Again, we've communicated in too scattered a fashion for people to put the pieces together reasonably. I'm going to try to resolve that in the weeks ahead.
And those of you who want the noobs to take a ticket and fix it and send the patch......how long have you been working in rails...a couple years?? As a member of the ruby and rails community you can't give others a couple of years to catch up - and in some cases - surpass your ruby and rails skill?
Absolutely. While I think it's helpful for us to point people at the bug tracker if there's interested in contributing, saying "it'll be done when you start helping" is not actually that helpful. A lot of people on this list, and out there in the world, aren't necessarily capable of contributing, especially at this stage. The Bugmash project (Create new page · railsbridge/docs Wiki · GitHub), which RailsBridge puts on periodically, is extremely helpful at getting new contributors past the initial hurdles. Their contribution guidelines are quite helpful as well.
And rails itself.....it's no accident that it took this long to re- factor it. Rails 3 really is a lot of merb, isn't it? And only because it was rebuilt with lots of new outside blood will it be as good as it's going to be. All the more to look to the future of what will rails 3 would have been without merb.....and what will rails 4 or 5 be without @whineynoobgenius4 sticking around?
Absolutely. Over the past year or so, we've added @tenderlove, @josevalim, and @spastorino and @xaviernoria to the group of people with commit access. Half a dozen or so more (Mikel Lindsaar, Neeraj Singh, Andrew White, Rohit Arondekar, and some others I'm forgetting atm) are actively participating in the day-to-day Rails 3 work. From my vantage point, we have far more activity and regular infusions of new blood today than we did when I started work on Rails 3 in January 2009. And I absolutely agree that continuing to support the participation of new, interested developers is critical to the progress of Rails in the years ahead.
So listen up.....@dhh, @wycats, @josevalim, @spastorino etc. You have a giant opportunity to sooth the massive amount of people who have become interested, well, largely by your own efforts to attract their interest. Use that opportunity to communicate and set a foundation for some of the outside blood that is coming in. For every noob that you find irritating and will disappear in a couple of months because they can't pay their dues, there are 5 others that are irritated and will pay their dues and may be on the rails 4 core team, if you are will to communicate. Just a blog post or twitter post a day from one of you will more than suffice. I've noticed a couple of those things in the last day or two and it really helps.
My own personal position (can't speak for anyone else on Rails core) is that no noob is too irritating to spend time listening to. In fact, the perspective of new Rails developers is very important, since there are certainly irritations in the process that we can no longer see (as you have pointed out). I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if you are interested in participating in the development of Rails, feel free to email me directly. I spend a fair amount of my day-to-day work communicating with community members, and I don't mind helping people get up to speed.
And @jeremy/@bitsweet - good for you for speaking your mind, but the FU stuff has a way of coming back to haunt you in things like client negotiations. That post will be here for eons....and you have no idea of all of the people who have seen it and taken note. If I had done that it would keep me up at night.
So yes....everybody remain calm. Our long community nightmare is almost over. A few days - couple of weeks at the outside, and people can finish their gems and plugins, and books, and ide's and projects, and hosting platforms and.....well, you get the idea...
Many of those who are working on gems, plugins, books, IDEs and hosting platforms have taken the drawn-out process of the Rails 3 beta period to provide extremely useful feedback about the current state of things. The feedback of David Chelimsky (rspec, on exposed testing APIs), Nathan Weisenbaum (haml, on templating APIs), several people at New Relic (on instrumentation), the folks at Engine Yard and Heroku (on bundler) and Sam Ruby (Agile Web Development on Rails, on general backwards compatibility) have been critical to ensuring that the final release of Rails 3 is up to the level of polish that you've come to expect from Rails. Thank you all.
There I've said it. I'll go back to the shadows now....
Thank you for your lengthy and articulate response. You are correct: we need to communicate with the community in a single, public place. This will be resolved.
Michael Schuerig wrote: >> As for the people who aren't good for this community, I so far see >> two of them in this entire thread and let me tell you: they aren't >> the people who are whining that Rails 3 isn't out yet. They're on >> the other side of that particular fence. Maybe they should leave? > > To get an idea of the impact that certain people leaving would have > on the community, I suggest writing a script to count the number > of contributions to the mailing list that the people involved in > this thread have made over the years.
Again with the e-penis comparisons. Jeez.
I think you're getting this wrong.
I personally couldn't give a crap (and you shouldn't either) about how many contributions they've made to the mailing list. The manner in which they are acting now is not beneficial to the community. If they were even decent members then they'd be decent *all the time*. Making x contributions to the mailing list doesn't give you the right to act in the manner seen in this thread.
I'll put it more plainly. I wouldn't want people to leave who put a lot of effort into answering questions no matter how silly or misguided they are (the questions!). That doesn't make what these people say and do right all the time and I don't have to like it all the time.
If you don't like that somebody is whinging because Rails 3 isn't out yet, [...]
Don't get me started whinging about things related to Rails. No matter, we all in here are apparently still using it.
Michael
Look, let's just point out the elephant in the room. Most people think Jeremy is kind of a dick. He wrote a dickish post. We're all still alive. Get over it.
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