Is Java Dead?

I'm just curious if you think Java is dead. If you post a message on
Spring's forums... you not only probably won't get any responses, you
will be lucky to get 1 or 2 views per day. Does that mean it's pretty
much dead, or do lots of people still use it but just don't visit the
forums?

You know what i would like to know the same this about C# in web development, how is that doing?

egervari wrote:

I'm just curious if you think Java is dead. If you post a message on
Spring's forums... you not only probably won't get any responses, you
will be lucky to get 1 or 2 views per day. Does that mean it's pretty
much dead, or do lots of people still use it but just don't visit the
forums?

Unfortunately, Java isn't dead. I'm still stuck in that quagmire every
day, and will be until I can find an escape from my current situation.

Java (IMHO) is being mangled by the huge ugly monster that is Oracle.
This does not bode well for Java in my view. I actually had a good
opinion of Sun Microsystems, other than the fact that they could never
seem to take their great ideas and products and turn them into a
profitable business. But, I certainly cannot say the same about Oracle.
I've never been a fan, I don't like their products, business tactics, or
even their leadership.

I am also not surprised that you're not getting responses from Java
forums. They have enough problems of their own. They don't have the
time, or the will, to help you out with yours. :slight_smile:

Keep in mind this is all strictly my opinion. However, it seems to me
that the vast majority of Java programmers are just going about their
daily lives with Java, as they have been doing for years. The passionate
programmers out in the world are desperately seeking alternatives. I
present to you "Ruby on Rails" as evidence to the effect.

egervari wrote:

I'm just curious if you think Java is dead. If you post a message on
Spring's forums... you not only probably won't get any responses, you
will be lucky to get 1 or 2 views per day. Does that mean it's pretty
much dead,

I hope so. I love the JVM, but in my opinion, Java is an awful,
inflexible, clunky language, designed to keep mediocre programmers from
shooting themselves in the foot and great programmers from doing
anything interesting. :slight_smile:

I wouldn't cry a bit if Java's importance were reduced to that of an
"assembly language" for the JVM -- that is, the language in which
interpreters for reasonable languages (Ruby, Groovy, Scala, Python,
Lisp...) are implemented.

Best,

That's like going on the PHP list asking if Perl is dead. Are you
seeking bias on purpose? :slight_smile:

I began developing Andorid apps last year and am presently making
quite a bit of money from them. From my perspective, Java is not
dead, far from it.

If you subscribe to some of the the popular job sites, Dice,
CareerBuilder, etc., you'll quickly see that Java is still very
popular. I see about 5-10 Java jobs listed for just my local area in
middle TN per day, and this area is in no way the technology capitol
of the world.

I think IDEs are important too, and will always be better in a static typed language like java. I haven’t seen a ruby (or python) IDE that comes close to the java IDEs. Look at Google Web Toolkit. I hate java, but I still use GWT for ajax apps instead of rails. (And by the way, it has an awesome discussion list :slight_smile:

Greg Donald wrote:

I'm just curious if you think Java is dead.

That's like going on the PHP list asking if Perl is dead. Are you
seeking bias on purpose? :slight_smile:

I began developing Andorid apps last year and am presently making
quite a bit of money from them. From my perspective, Java is not
dead, far from it.

Of course, that's the JVM. You could write an Android app in JRuby,
Scala, or Clojure if you wanted to, right?

If you subscribe to some of the the popular job sites, Dice,
CareerBuilder, etc., you'll quickly see that Java is still very
popular. I see about 5-10 Java jobs listed for just my local area in
middle TN per day, and this area is in no way the technology capitol
of the world.

There sure are lots of Java jobs out there. There are also lots of
ColdFusion and VB.net jobs out there, as well as companies still using
CVS.

--
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

Best,

Of course, that's the JVM. You could write an Android app in JRuby,
Scala, or Clojure if you wanted to, right?

No idea. Personally I'd rather just keep building my new apps using
the Android SDK.

There sure are lots of Java jobs out there. There are also lots of
ColdFusion and VB.net jobs out there, as well as companies still using
CVS.

And Google is backing how many of those? Zero I believe.

Greg Donald wrote:

Of course, that's the JVM. �You could write an Android app in JRuby,
Scala, or Clojure if you wanted to, right?

No idea. Personally I'd rather just keep building my new apps using
the Android SDK.

My understanding of (at least) JRuby is that "using the *** Java SDK"
and "using JRuby" are not mutually exclusive, since JRuby can deal
directly with Java classes. (It [with the help of Monkeybars] makes
Swing easier to work with, that's for sure!)

There sure are lots of Java jobs out there. �There are also lots of
ColdFusion and VB.net jobs out there, as well as companies still using
CVS.

And Google is backing how many of those? Zero I believe.

Yes indeed...of course, Adobe and Microsoft aren't exactly small
potatoes, as much as we might like them to be...

--
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

Best,

There sure are lots of Java jobs out there. �There are also lots of

ColdFusion and VB.net jobs out there, as well as companies still using

CVS.

And Google is backing how many of those? Zero I believe.

Yes indeed…of course, Adobe and Microsoft aren’t exactly small

potatoes, as much as we might like them to be…

I believe that the main reason there are so many jobs for this technologies has more to do with the investment
made by the users than the fact that they are more productive or not, than using the best/newest available technology.

After paying to get an IDE, training , consulting, certifications and spending long hours to understand something, if someone
comes to a small/medium development company offering something like ruby/rails/linux, they will mostly refuse it, even if its reliable,

better, more productive, faster, easier,flexible and secure. There is a huge resistance to that change.

In my case im use to working a lot with microsoft technology and sometimes things come up that not even the guys at MS know what to do and the

solutions is to reinstall/format, even after folloing best practices , manuals and whatever. So when something happens and has a mysterious solution, some one gets a lot of money for fixing it(me in this case) but is something that should have never happen in the first place. Take antiviruses for example, there are people making huge money thanks to that. My point is there is more people getting benefits from the complex/static/mysterious/old/expensive technologies than from lets say, your average open source app so we will be see java/.net for quite some time.

Greg Donald wrote:

I'm just curious if you think Java is dead.

That's like going on the PHP list asking if Perl is dead. Are you
seeking bias on purpose? :slight_smile:

Agreed. Subject changed to OT.

I began developing Andorid apps last year and am presently making
quite a bit of money from them. From my perspective, Java is not
dead, far from it.

If you subscribe to some of the the popular job sites, Dice,
CareerBuilder, etc., you'll quickly see that Java is still very
popular. I see about 5-10 Java jobs listed for just my local area in
middle TN per day, and this area is in no way the technology capitol
of the world.

If languages died from old age then C would have died a long time ago.
However, C is still very much alive. Sure, it's been extended in
various ways, but the core of C is still very much in use today. Take
for example anything that uses OpenGL. OpenGL is a C based library.
There are many pure C libraries that are still very relevant today. Many
Ruby gems make use of C libraries for performance reasons (e.g.
ImageMagick, libxml2, etc).

Java is relevant and highly popular in "enterprise" applications. And,
sure many people make a lot of money using Java. I myself make a living
programming in Java. However, that doesn't make me love Java as a
language. Although I use it, I despise the strict static typing that
Java enforces, and not being able to override class/static methods is
simply bone-headed stupid. I fully realize that it is a matter of
opinion and we know everyone has one of those.

I'm happy you're making money building Android applications. I know
their SKD is build around the Java language. That being said, I
personally have no interest in building Android applications simply due
to Java. I'd rather spend my time building stuff to sell in a language,
and platform, I can enjoy. I'd be quite happy to outsource an Android
version of my apps to someone else. Learning the SDK is a huge
investment and I'm not planning on investing any more of my life to Java
based SDKs.

After paying to get an IDE,

Eclipse is free.

training,

I can't respect programmers who aren't capable of teaching themselves.
Programmers are problem solvers. One who can't even begin to solve
the initial problem of not knowing something isn't really a
programmer, he's just punching a time clock and pretending.

spending long hours to understand something,

Perhaps you would be happier in a more simple job.

if someone
comes to a small/medium development company offering something like
ruby/rails/linux, they will mostly refuse it, even if its reliable,
better, more productive, faster, easier,flexible and secure. There is a huge
resistance to that change.

So don't work at those places, or take the time to show them what you
know. A PHB will usually respect a programmer who goes the extra mile
on their own time to show off a new technology. I've actually got up
and left interviews where it was said I wouldn't be allowed to choose
my tools or that the company was using some technology and was closed
to the idea of change.

I love Rails, Ruby, Linux, etc. But oh man Android is making me fat
money right now. They just opened the Google Marketplace place to 20
new countries last week and the flood of new purchases has begun in
full force. I don't really care that Andorid is Java and not
something else. Andorid is Google's Java, and it's solid, unlike
Sun's.

Greg Donald wrote:

After paying to get an IDE,

Eclipse is free.

training,

I can't respect programmers

Yes, that's quite apparent. :slight_smile:

who aren't capable of teaching themselves.

I mostly agree, but that doesn't mean that training doesn't have its
uses.

Programmers are problem solvers. One who can't even begin to solve
the initial problem of not knowing something isn't really a
programmer, he's just punching a time clock and pretending.

Probably true.

[...]

if someone
comes to a small/medium development company offering something like
ruby/rails/linux, they will mostly refuse it, even if its reliable,
better, more productive, faster, easier,flexible and secure. There is a huge
resistance to that change.

So don't work at those places, or take the time to show them what you
know. A PHB will usually respect a programmer who goes the extra mile
on their own time to show off a new technology.

To some extent. At my current job, we're encouraged to do research and
present on new technologies. But there are limits. If I suggested
(say) introducing Mustache for our views, I think the suggestion would
be seriously considered. If, however, I suggested reimplementing the
entire application in Python instead of Ruby, I suspect I'd be asked
what I was smoking and why I was working there.

And that's probably the way it should be. Certainly experimentation is
good, but one can't switch the codebase over to every new fad.

I've actually got up
and left interviews where it was said I wouldn't be allowed to choose
my tools or that the company was using some technology and was closed
to the idea of change.

You must leave a lot of interviews, then.

I love Rails, Ruby, Linux, etc. But oh man Android is making me fat
money right now. They just opened the Google Marketplace place to 20
new countries last week and the flood of new purchases has begun in
full force. I don't really care that Andorid is Java and not
something else. Andorid is Google's Java, and it's solid, unlike
Sun's.

Where can I find your apps? I'd like to have a look.

--
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

Best,

http://www.androlib.com/android.developer.cyberfusion-consulting-jqim.aspx

http://www.cyrket.com/search?market=android&account=Cyberfusion+Consulting

Users really love my BlackJack, BlackJack Trainer, and my Jacks or
Better Poker. The other ones only make so-so money.

I'm presently working on a new 2D side scrolling space shooter at the
moment. I'm using AndEngine, a really nice OpenGL framework for
Android: http://www.andengine.org/

To some extent. At my current job, we're encouraged to do research and
present on new technologies. But there are limits. If I suggested
(say) introducing Mustache for our views, I think the suggestion would
be seriously considered. If, however, I suggested reimplementing the
entire application in Python instead of Ruby, I suspect I'd be asked
what I was smoking and why I was working there.

And that's probably the way it should be. Certainly experimentation is
good, but one can't switch the codebase over to every new fad.

Well, I have done exactly that. At my current job, I'm into my 4th
year here now, they were using PHP on Oracle. They used Oracle
because it's academia and the license cost is nearly zero. After I
showed them how quickly I could build an app in Rails that's the
direction we headed. All new web apps are built in Rails. We still
maintain the legacy PHP stuff, but there's not much of it around
anymore.

Getting rid of Oracle is proving to be harder. There are genetics
analysts here who actually love Oracle. Last year I built a pilot app
using PostgreSQL. It went off without a hitch so we are now "allowed"
to use PostgreSQL. I doubt Oracle is going away anytime soon, but at
least we can freely use Rails and PostgreSQL.

I've actually got up
and left interviews where it was said I wouldn't be allowed to choose
my tools or that the company was using some technology and was closed
to the idea of change.

You must leave a lot of interviews, then.

Three times in 15 years, but oh how I relish those three times I did
it. Funny story one of them: I asked the hiring manager if I'd be
allowed to use Linux on my desktop. He said no, that his sys-admins
had no experience with it, so they wouldn't be able to audit my system
for pirated software. I told him I was at the wrong place and walked
out.

After paying to get an IDE,

Eclipse is free.

Think visual studio, remember that it has more marketing so more companies know of its existence.

training,

I can’t respect programmers who aren’t capable of teaching themselves.

Programmers are problem solvers. One who can’t even begin to solve

the initial problem of not knowing something isn’t really a

programmer, he’s just punching a time clock and pretending.

I agree with you and i have never payed for training

spending long hours to understand something,

Perhaps you would be happier in a more simple job.

It is not my case, im explaining why i think people still use and invest in things that are not cutting edge, or better.
I know poeple that have gotten their MCAP and etc, and i have told them about rails, and they look at me as if im an

alien of sort, and say “dude im not going to learn everything again, im too deep in this to go switching to something unknown”.

if someone

comes to a small/medium development company offering something like

ruby/rails/linux, they will mostly refuse it, even if its reliable,

better, more productive, faster, easier,flexible and secure. There is a huge

resistance to that change.

So don’t work at those places, or take the time to show them what you

know. A PHB will usually respect a programmer who goes the extra mile

on their own time to show off a new technology. I’ve actually got up

and left interviews where it was said I wouldn’t be allowed to choose

my tools or that the company was using some technology and was closed

to the idea of change.

I dont, im CTO where i work , ever since i tried rails have never looked back.

I love Rails, Ruby, Linux, etc. But oh man Android is making me fat

money right now. They just opened the Google Marketplace place to 20

new countries last week and the flood of new purchases has begun in

full force. I don’t really care that Andorid is Java and not

something else. Andorid is Google’s Java, and it’s solid, unlike

Sun’s.

Im embarrass to say this but… i make most of my money with MS products, i live out of the stupidity of people T_T.

Greg Donald wrote:

To some extent. �At my current job, we're encouraged to do research and
present on new technologies. �But there are limits. �If I suggested
(say) introducing Mustache for our views, I think the suggestion would
be seriously considered. �If, however, I suggested reimplementing the
entire application in Python instead of Ruby, I suspect I'd be asked
what I was smoking and why I was working there.

And that's probably the way it should be. �Certainly experimentation is
good, but one can't switch the codebase over to every new fad.

Well, I have done exactly that. At my current job, I'm into my 4th
year here now, they were using PHP on Oracle. They used Oracle
because it's academia and the license cost is nearly zero. After I
showed them how quickly I could build an app in Rails that's the
direction we headed. All new web apps are built in Rails. We still
maintain the legacy PHP stuff, but there's not much of it around
anymore.

Hmm...I've been in that situation too. Thinking about it some more, it
depends on the organizational structure. I have had jobs where I
probably could have switched the application over from PHP to RoR if I'd
wanted to and argued well enough for it.

I guess the Python example wasn't all that well stated. What I think I
meant was more that there are some things that are just not feasible to
change for the whole project by the fiat of one developer. I doubt that
I could get the implementation language changed for the current app, but
I might be able to make a good case for future development if I wanted
to (which I don't).

Also, you're in academia, which is notorious for being very faddish in
some ways regarding technical decisions. I'm not.

(FWIW, I understand that my boss and his boss just put Rails in within
the past year or two, so at least at their level, there's room to do
that...)

Getting rid of Oracle is proving to be harder. There are genetics
analysts here who actually love Oracle. Last year I built a pilot app
using PostgreSQL. It went off without a hitch so we are now "allowed"
to use PostgreSQL. I doubt Oracle is going away anytime soon, but at
least we can freely use Rails and PostgreSQL.

Right.

I've actually got up
and left interviews where it was said I wouldn't be allowed to choose
my tools or that the company was using some technology and was closed
to the idea of change.

You must leave a lot of interviews, then.

Three times in 15 years, but oh how I relish those three times I did
it. Funny story one of them: I asked the hiring manager if I'd be
allowed to use Linux on my desktop. He said no, that his sys-admins
had no experience with it, so they wouldn't be able to audit my system
for pirated software. I told him I was at the wrong place and walked
out.

That's wrong on lots of levels; lack of OS choice is only the least of
it. I don't know if I'd have left an interview for that, but I'd
certainly have run screaming from a job offer.

--
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

Best,

I’m really sad about Oracle’s decisions involving Java, but i had to admit that Sun’s aquisition was a really good busness step. Think about others big companies (in ERP, LOB software and others), every big company has their own language and technology stack.SAP has ABAP, Microsoft has .NET, Apple has Object C, TOTVS (in Brazil) has ADVPL and Totvs tech. Is natural that Oracle will like to have a solid technology base to construct their products, that’s actually, is aready in JAVA (not the DB part, the ERP). Even Google is building their own language (Go), witch i won’t be surprised if next android versions start to support it.

Now Oracle has the entire control over the software and as a “bonus”, won the hardware and operational system…

Java is not dead, but i think that new companies will begin to think twice when considerer Java as their primary language development. There are companies that prefer to choose a language that is supported for a big solid company like Microsoft. This companies will look that Oracle “control” in Java as a good thing.

Brett Thomas wrote:

I think IDEs are important too, and will always be better in a static
typed
language like java. I haven't seen a ruby (or python) IDE that comes
close
to the java IDEs.

Good Java IDEs exist because the language (and tools like Ant) is so
clumsy that you need an IDE to automate lots of stuff for you. An IDE
for Ruby would be pointless, because the language and build tools are so
concise and powerful.

Look at Google Web Toolkit. I hate java, but I still
use
GWT for ajax apps instead of rails. (And by the way, it has an awesome
discussion list :slight_smile:

Of course, Rails 2's Ajax helpers are crap. I'd seriously consider GWT
for the frontend (and Rails for the backend) if I were doing Ajax -- but
then I'd put JRuby on top of the GWT libraries.

Best,