Harry Potter 5 - The order of the Phoenix

Harry Potter 5
The Order of the Phoenix

Harry Potter and His friends

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Harry Potter 5 - The Order of the Phoenix

Kann anyone please ban Mahnoor?

Thomas Wieczorek wrote:

Kann anyone please ban Mahnoor?
  

It's perhaps easiest to filter out his emails in your mail client. This is the list of addresses that I have filtered from this mailing list so far:

condition="OR (from,is,rania.desai@gmail.com) OR (from,is,moona.naeem@gmail.com) OR (from,is,sarah.singh9000@gmail.com) OR (from,is,sheetal.sinha1@gmail.com) OR (from,is,tania.rajpot@gmail.com) OR (from,is,maria.gil2@gmail.com) OR (from,is,koom2020@gmail.com) OR (from,is,chozzhan@gmail.com) OR (from,is,desigac@gmail.com) OR (from,is,a.kaur11@gmail.com) OR (from,is,elizibet.gill@gmail.com) OR (from,is,myreplicasupplier@yahoo.com) OR (from,is,smartnobia@gmail.com) OR (from,is,lapadat@gmail.com) OR (from,is,gazarche84@yahoo.com) OR (from,is,coolguy17111987@gmail.com) OR (from,is,ecastroph@gmail.com) OR (from,is,fridy@126.com) OR (from,is,imtiaz459ali@gmail.com) OR (from,is,zo0oma.blackhole@gmail.com) OR (from,is,wassup6930@yahoo.com) OR (from,is,aveplanet.info@gmail.com) OR (from,is,info@new-bar.com) OR (from,is,travolta001@gmail.com) OR (from,is,sixfigureincome888@gmail.com) OR (from,is,knjaz0@gmail.com) OR (from,is,cetiri@gmail.com) OR (from,is,maria.gil2@gmail.com)"

Cheers,
Mohit.
8/11/2007 | 2:25 PM.

Why should we have to put up with manually setting up filtering of
individual mail accounts for this list? Really?

  / Peter Bengtson

11 aug 2007 kl. 08.25 skrev Mohit Sindhwani:

Peter Bengtson wrote the following on 11.08.2007 13:05 :

Why should we have to put up with manually setting up filtering of
individual mail accounts for this list? Really?
  
Because it's free and you get what you paid for.
Maybe you can't use a decent mail system with anti-SPAM software (some
people can't because of inadequate local policies out of their control
or compromise their control over filtering by choosing to read the list
on web archives). If it really bothers you too much just setup a new
mailing list and administer it yourself, if it's good enough people will
migrate but somehow I doubt that given that you will only address the
needs of what seems to be a vocal minority.

By the way, I rarely even see the original SPAM. I guess that the
annoyed replies meet my eyes 10x more often. IIRC these replies never
come with even the start of a personnal commitment to help with a
possible solution.

So I guess it's my turn to send an annoyed reply: just read the list
with a decent mailer with integrated bayesian filtering (how in the hell
can you still put up with your mail if you are not already using
bayesian/statistical filtering?) and stop complaining about the free beer.

Lionel.

Lionel Bouton wrote:

By the way, I rarely even see the original SPAM. I guess that the
annoyed replies meet my eyes 10x more often. IIRC these replies never
come with even the start of a personnal commitment to help with a
possible solution.

I already run a mailing list which has no spam, thank you!

Thanks Mohit, email addresses get obscurated by google groups. It
would be helpful if you could put that in a pastie somewhere (and have
a blog point at it)

11 aug 2007 kl. 13.33 skrev Lionel Bouton:

Because it's free and you get what you paid for.

That's a ridiculous answer and you know it. There are lots of examples of free products where high quality is maintained in a consistent manner. Rails is one of them.

So I guess it's my turn to send an annoyed reply: just read the list
with a decent mailer with integrated bayesian filtering (how in the hell
can you still put up with your mail if you are not already using
bayesian/statistical filtering?) and stop complaining about the free beer.

Lionel, there is Bayesian filtering, SpamAssassin, RBL lists and other measures involved. Still some spam manages to get through. If you know anything at all about the mathematics behind Bayes equations, you will know that they require training. And that messages worded like normal messages will get through.

As the owner of several public mailing lists, I know that part of the job of setting up and running one, is monitoring the list for spammers and blocking them - apart from all the other measures taken to alleviate spam. And the word is "alleviate". That's why a modicum of manual intervention is required for any list - especially for a large and important list as this. Why certain users are allowed to send hundreds of spam messages to this list, irritating thousands of readers, is really beyond me.

Appoint a moderator - not for individual messages, but for the purpose of removing spammers. Simple. Efficient. And it would benefit the entire Rails community. I'm sure there are volunteers for the task.

Peter Bengtson wrote the following on 11.08.2007 15:20 :

11 aug 2007 kl. 13.33 skrev Lionel Bouton:

Because it's free and you get what you paid for.
    
That's a ridiculous answer and you know it. There are lots of
examples of free products where high quality is maintained in a
consistent manner. Rails is one of them.
  
You misuderstood me. In fact you should know what this expression
means... This expression in the context of free software/goods doesn't
imply that free is automatically of poor quality, it just means you
don't *get* the right to complain as you didn't pay for it.

Lionel, there is Bayesian filtering, SpamAssassin, RBL lists and
other measures involved. Still some spam manages to get through. If
you know anything at all about the mathematics behind Bayes
equations, you will know that they require training.

Yes, I've programmed several statistical filters myself and I sometimes
mark one false negative on occasion in Thunderbird... The total amount
of time I spent on these false negatives is certainly far less than the
time to write this email or the time you spent yourself on yours. This
is why I don't *care* for moderators, I don't need them.

And that
messages worded like normal messages will get through.

:slight_smile: If you knew bayesian filters well enough you'd know that their
performance not only depends on training but on the tokenizer.
Theoritically a perfect (and awfully complex) tokenizer mapping the text
to semantics would give unbreakable filtering after enough training. In
practice even the new PDF-based SPAMs designed to circumvent statistical
classification are caught by Thunderbird...

This by no means eliminates the need for training the filter, it just
means that the time needed is negligible and everybody should already do
it for his/her email (simply because as soon as you are on a public list
you automatically become a SPAM target).

As the owner of several public mailing lists, I know that part of the
job of setting up and running one, is monitoring the list for
spammers and blocking them - apart from all the other measures taken
to alleviate spam. And the word is "alleviate". That's why a modicum
of manual intervention is required for any list - especially for a
large and important list as this.

You're willing to spent some time and maybe money for others and I
certainly respect that (I even do it myself for what it's worth).

Why certain users are allowed to
send hundreds of spam messages to this list, irritating thousands of
readers, is really beyond me.

Appoint a moderator - not for individual messages, but for the
purpose of removing spammers. Simple. Efficient. And it would benefit
the entire Rails community. I'm sure there are volunteers for the task.

Volunteers are great, but does googlegroups even provide support for
moderation? If it's possible to moderate google groups, did any of these
"volunteers" ask for moderator status?

If you are not willing to host the list yourself and moderate it or
contact Google to see if they can give you moderate rights, please don't
waste any more time discussing this.

This subject comes regularly on the list with *zero* result each time. I
really wonder if some people aren't living in a fantasy land where good
ideas magically become facts without any effort from anybody...

Lionel.

I forward the emails to abuse@gmail.com. If they get enough the account will be closed.

Here's the list for those who need it: http://pastie.caboo.se/86847

Cheers,
Mohit.
8/12/2007 | 12:41 AM.

because google doesn't handle that. the solution to this is usually to require a confirmation and manual intervention step for subscribing people to the list, and to ruthlessly kick anyone that starts spamming, but it looks like the rails list maintainers aren't able to do that.

-faisal

speaking of bayesian filtering, this was probably the most reasoned
response to the thread so far. so of course it's the *one* my client
marked as junk.

it seems like we need to put together a core group to manage
subscriptions, let people on, and kick people off for spamming.

i'd propose the following as policy:

- anyone can subscribe with no restriction, but the request must be
approved by a human. this is an artificial buffer to block the bots
that attempt to subscribe and then instantly spam.

- people can be kicked for sending out spam, and nothing else.
borderline cases should be warned. repeat borderline cases should be
kicked. it wouldn't hurt to have a small group of active people to
vote on this, but they need to be able to respond fairly quickly.

i'll volunteer to be involved in this, but it's sort of pointless
until the current real maintainer (who *is* that, anyway) steps
forward and is willing to do anything with it.

-faisal

This expression in the context of free software/goods doesn't imply that free is automatically of poor quality, it just means you don't *get* the right to complain as you didn't pay for it.

If there's one thing people in the free software community appear to have, it's an inalienable right to complain. Most of the complain about Windows and neither paid for it nor ever use it.

If you are not willing to host the list yourself and moderate it or
contact Google to see if they can give you moderate rights, please don't
waste any more time discussing this.

i'm looking into whether my usual host would be willing to host a list with this load. even if they say yes, though, i can't see it as being worth it unless we move the list over -- forking doesn't strike me as useful.

-faisal

The group owner is probably DHH himself.

Google Groups web front-end doesn't show who it is, but allows to send
him a message via a web form:
http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk/post?sendowner=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frubyonrails-talk%2Fabout%3Fhl%3Den%26&

Faisal N Jawdat wrote:

speaking of bayesian filtering, this was probably the most reasoned response to the thread so far. so of course it's the *one* my client marked as junk.

it seems like we need to put together a core group to manage subscriptions, let people on, and kick people off for spamming.

i'd propose the following as policy:

- anyone can subscribe with no restriction, but the request must be approved by a human. this is an artificial buffer to block the bots that attempt to subscribe and then instantly spam.

- people can be kicked for sending out spam, and nothing else. borderline cases should be warned. repeat borderline cases should be kicked. it wouldn't hurt to have a small group of active people to vote on this, but they need to be able to respond fairly quickly.

i'll volunteer to be involved in this, but it's sort of pointless until the current real maintainer (who *is* that, anyway) steps forward and is willing to do anything with it.

-faisal

11 aug 2007 kl. 13.33 skrev Lionel Bouton:

Because it's free and you get what you paid for.
      

That's a ridiculous answer and you know it. There are lots of
examples of free products where high quality is maintained in a
consistent manner. Rails is one of them.

So I guess it's my turn to send an annoyed reply: just read the list
with a decent mailer with integrated bayesian filtering (how in the
hell
can you still put up with your mail if you are not already using
bayesian/statistical filtering?) and stop complaining about the
free beer.
      

Lionel, there is Bayesian filtering, SpamAssassin, RBL lists and
other measures involved. Still some spam manages to get through. If
you know anything at all about the mathematics behind Bayes
equations, you will know that they require training. And that
messages worded like normal messages will get through.

As the owner of several public mailing lists, I know that part of the
job of setting up and running one, is monitoring the list for
spammers and blocking them - apart from all the other measures taken
to alleviate spam. And the word is "alleviate". That's why a modicum
of manual intervention is required for any list - especially for a
large and important list as this. Why certain users are allowed to
send hundreds of spam messages to this list, irritating thousands of
readers, is really beyond me.

Appoint a moderator - not for individual messages, but for the
purpose of removing spammers. Simple. Efficient. And it would benefit
the entire Rails community. I'm sure there are volunteers for the task.

Hi Faisal,

The policy I follow on Yahoo Groups is that any one can join and receive mails from the list - no moderation is required. When someone wants to post, I moderate their first message - if it is related, I approve the message and allow them to post without restriction thereafter. It's a simple measure that keeps out spam unless someone wants to sign up, send a related message and then spam.

The problem with this list is that there are actually 10,000 users!! Moderating at any level is quite an activity. Also, this list allows people to post from online forums. That creates a further problem.

Cheers,
Mohit.
8/12/2007 | 11:27 AM.

The problem with this list is that there are actually 10,000 users!!
Moderating at any level is quite an activity. Also, this list allows
people to post from online forums. That creates a further problem.

Cheers,
Mohit.
8/12/2007 | 11:27 AM.

the person who runs ruby-forum is very responsive when asked to remove
spammers here:

http://www.ruby-forum.com/forum/2

that's pretty decent -- does yahoo allow that automatically?

i haven't used yahoogroups for open groups since they once unceremoniously shut down another group i ran for spam after i complained about a user spamming the list.

-faisal

Faisal N Jawdat wrote:

  

The policy I follow on Yahoo Groups is that any one can join and receive
mails from the list - no moderation is required. When someone wants to
post, I moderate their first message - if it is related, I approve the
message and allow them to post without restriction thereafter. It's a
simple measure that keeps out spam unless someone wants to sign up, send
a related message and then spam.
    
that's pretty decent -- does yahoo allow that automatically?

i haven't used yahoogroups for open groups since they once unceremoniously shut down another group i ran for spam after i complained about a user spamming the list.

-faisal
  
Hi Faisal,

Yahoo Groups lets you specify the properties of the group (in my case, all users can receive the email but all posts are moderated) and then lets you override the properties on a per-user basis (in my case, after a user posts a decent on-topic or 'related' off-topic message, I override the property for that user allowing him to post unmoderated).

That's all there is to it!

Cheers,
Mohit.
8/13/2007 | 10:56 AM.